00:00 Lisa Shoalmire: And so sometimes, it's really hard to separate the truth from the reality and depending on your news source and all that. And a lot of times, there's a little bit of truth in something, but they're shouting from the rooftops, but they're not telling you the whole story. And so Aging Insight is not a source of fake news. 00:22 John Ross: No, that is true. We're gonna get to the bottom of some things. 00:24 Lisa Shoalmire: That's right. So this past week, I saw some headlines screaming off the computer about changes with regard to gun rights and folks that may receive Social Security disability insurance. And boy, I was all riled up, John. 00:46 John Ross: You were. You were pretty riled up. 00:47 Lisa Shoalmire: I was like, "Oh no, no, no. This is not right." 00:50 John Ross: No. In fact, as I was gathering up stuff, you talk about the headlines and this was the first headline that pulled up when I was trying to find the article I wanted to look at. But this was not the article, but this was the first one that popped up in my newsfeed, "Grandma got run over by Obama." 01:14 Lisa Shoalmire: [laughter] Yeah. 01:14 John Ross: Social Security finalizes new gun prohibitions. 01:18 Lisa Shoalmire: Yeah. Well, and true enough, Social Security has finalized some new gun prohibitions. That is a true statement. 01:28 John Ross: That's a true statement. 01:29 Lisa Shoalmire: Yeah. But as they say, "The devil is in the details." 01:33 John Ross: Yeah. If I strike a match in a theater, there is still fire in a theater. But yelling out, "Fire," in the theater is probably not a good idea. 01:42 Lisa Shoalmire: So I thought today, I bet... We live in a community where there are a lot of folks that use firearms for self-protection, for protection of their home, for recreation and sporting purposes. 01:55 John Ross: For collections and investments and all kinds of stuff. 01:58 Lisa Shoalmire: Yeah. So we have a lot of folks around that have firearms. And so when I first saw these headlines turning through, I thought, "Okay." And thankfully, you jumped in to investigate so we can tell our listeners what these Social Security rules really are. 02:15 John Ross: Right. And so first of all, I think we gotta go... Anytime you start talking about this sort of thing, you gotta understand some of the background here. The first issue is, essentially, this whole fourth branch of government deal. 02:28 Lisa Shoalmire: Yeah. Yeah. The administrative law where Congress makes a law, the president... Congress is the only law-makers that we're supposed to have. 02:36 John Ross: That's right. 02:36 Lisa Shoalmire: And then the president, as the executive branch, is the enforcement of the law. That's why the FBI and all that's under the president. 02:45 John Ross: That's right. 02:46 Lisa Shoalmire: And then, of course, our judicial branch is simply to interpret what congress did when they passed the law. So that's how our three branches of government work. But you know what, John? Congress doesn't write every jot and tittle of the law. 03:03 John Ross: I'm not gonna say they're lazy. 03:06 Lisa Shoalmire: But... 03:08 John Ross: But I can't think of a better word. 03:08 Lisa Shoalmire: They're slothful, perhaps. [chuckle] 03:10 John Ross: And so you often will hear... You will see laws that are written and they will say something to the effect of, "Social Security should have some stuff about mental illness and we want them to make up the rules related to that." That's the law that Congress has passed. 03:33 Lisa Shoalmire: Yeah. The law says that, "We Congress think that... We want prohibitions with gun ownership and certain mental health patients who receive Social Security, but we will leave it to the Social Security agency to come up with the details and regulations to implement our overall plan." 03:54 John Ross: Right. The effect of which, though, is once these government agencies do come up with regulations, those regulations have the full force and effect of law. 04:05 Lisa Shoalmire: Right. They sure do. They have the full force and effect of law, and John, to challenge one of these regulations and to say that it is unconstitutional or improperly-applied or something like that, you gotta go to the courthouse and you gotta ask a federal judge to review it. That's expensive. Not a lot of people can do that. So, in reality, these regulatory bodies know that they can make thousands of rules. And in reality, almost none of them are ever going to be challenged. 04:39 John Ross: Right. And this is why, generally-speaking, almost anybody walking around in the United States cannot go a 24-hour period without violating a federal rule. 04:48 Lisa Shoalmire: Yes. And there was actually a book written about that called "Three Felonies a Day." And the author takes the position that we basically all commit three felonies a day and we don't even know it. [chuckle] 04:57 John Ross: Yeah. You just don't know it. And as a general rule, there may not be any actual prosecution of all of those. But they're out there because there's so many out there. So I guess that's the first thing. The other issue is the rules related to firearm ownership, because unlike virtually every other asset a person has, gun's got rules. 05:24 Lisa Shoalmire: That's right. And even though... Of course, we all know that possession of firearms is the Second Amendment. And I can't quite quote it. I used to could quote it. But the right to bear arms and such, but those rights are subject to reasonable regulation. And part of that reasonable regulation has been ever since... Gosh, it's been, I don't know, 30, 50 years, that persons who are known drug addicts, and persons who are mentally-defective and that kind of thing. 06:05 John Ross: Yeah, convicted felons. 06:07 Lisa Shoalmire: Convicted felons are not entitled to own firearms, even though it is a right that is enshrined in our US Constitution. 06:13 John Ross: Right. So we have this list of people that should not own firearms. I think one of the things that... A lot of these, maybe on their face, have some pretty reasonable backing. So for example, if we say, "Okay. Well, we don't want people who have been convicted of a violent crime," for example, "to be able to possess, transport, buy, sell firearms." You can make an argument that that's a decent enough restriction that these are people who have proved themselves to be a danger to society. And although maybe they have served their time, we still maybe don't need them out there running around with guns legally. Not that that's gonna do anything to stop them from illegally doing it, but regardless, we can at least say that, okay... 07:11 Lisa Shoalmire: Yeah, that's another show. [laughter] 07:12 John Ross: On its face that restriction seems legitimate. It's also easy to determine. 07:19 Lisa Shoalmire: Right. Have you or have you not been convicted of a violent crime? 07:22 John Ross: Yeah, you either have or you haven't, it's just that simple. And the same thing goes with many of them like minority, for example. If you're three... 07:32 Lisa Shoalmire: Years old. 07:34 John Ross: Three years old, yeah, that's relatively easy to determine. And we probably don't need you with your own little pocket cannon. Three-year-olds, not really responsible enough for that sort of thing. 07:47 Lisa Shoalmire: Well, and then we get to the one where it says, "If you have been adjudicated, you have been judicially adjudicated as incompetent." 08:01 John Ross: Right. So this is where a judge has made a determination that you cannot comprehend what's going on in the world. 08:09 Lisa Shoalmire: Right. So once again, it's very easy to determine. Is there a judicial order that has deemed an individual to be incapacitated? 08:17 John Ross: Right. But then we start... After that, we start getting into, and the big one here is the mental side of this. 08:24 Lisa Shoalmire: Yes. 08:25 John Ross: And this is where it starts getting gray, really gray. Really, really, really gray. And unfortunately, we're gonna have to take a quick break. So let me see if I can get this over here. 08:37 Lisa Shoalmire: See if our technical? 08:38 John Ross: Yeah. All right. We're gonna take a break. We'll be right back, maybe. [music] 08:41 Guest: Welcome to Aging Insight, the only show dedicated to your elder care concerns, and your resource for learning about how to manage your health, housing, financial and legal needs. This is a live call-in program featuring John Ross and Lisa Shoalmire, elder law attorneys and senior advocates for the Ark-La-Tex. Aging Insight is dedicated to helping you navigate the challenges and blessing of growing older, so call in and ask your questions. The number is 903-793-1071. Now, here are your hosts, John Ross and Lisa Shoalmire. 08:58 John Ross: Welcome back to Aging Insight everybody. We're here today, Lisa and I, right before the New Year's and talking about a rule change related to gun ownership and Social Security that was finalized right before the Christmas break. 09:15 Lisa Shoalmire: Yes, new final rule issued December 19th so this is all hot off the press. 09:21 John Ross: That's right. And so, what we were talking about, before we took the break here, was that there are restrictions out there that are very easy, when it comes to gun ownership, that are very easy to determine but the Supreme Court in a case of District of Columbia versus Heller had made the comment. This is the Supreme Court saying that like most rights, the rights secured by the Second Amendment, is not unlimited and that nothing in the court's opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill. 10:04 Lisa Shoalmire: Yes, John, but as I recall, that Heller opinion really did not discuss in any detail, at all, what is mentally... 10:14 John Ross: What is mentally ill? 10:15 Lisa Shoalmire: Mentally ill means, right. 10:17 John Ross: Yeah, because I've had some people that I've thought were mentally ill that were active members of society. Mental illness is very gray and we deal with this a lot, particularly in the context of things like Alzheimer's or Parkinson's where mental illness... 10:40 Lisa Shoalmire: Yeah, there are mental effects to those disease processes. 10:42 John Ross: There are mental effects to those disease processes and a person might be perfectly fine in the morning, not fine in the afternoon, and fine again by the next morning. In any given day, they may go from mentally ill to not mentally ill and back again. 11:03 Lisa Shoalmire: Well, and John, even besides that, mental illness is something that the professionals in that area, they have a book that they use to diagnose various mental illnesses and it is the DSM and I know I've... 11:21 John Ross: Four, I believe is the... 11:22 Lisa Shoalmire: Four, five, I don't know. 11:24 John Ross: I believe it's the DSM-IV that's still the latest. 11:25 Lisa Shoalmire: But it's the Diagnostic... 11:27 John Ross: Diagnostic and Statistical Manual. 11:29 Lisa Shoalmire: Manual, yeah. And so, things like narcissism and OCD and personality disorders and all those things are listed in this manual and basically it lists symptoms that correspond with each disease or each mental illness and you have to have five of six of these symptoms in order to be diagnosed with this particular mental illness. And for some, mental illnesses, John, there is some objective medical. We can do scans and we can look at the brain and see shrinkage and things like that and other mental illness, it's just observation. 12:12 John Ross: Yeah, that's right. 12:13 Lisa Shoalmire: So, again, very gray area. The Social Security Administration rules about gun ownership, basically it has to do with the Social Security Administration making some rules about a whole additional category of people who Social Security Administration has taken the position that there are a number of people that receive Social Security payments that qualify as mentally defective, even though they've never been adjudicated by a judge as such. But their symptomology is such and so they should be prohibited from owning firearms. 12:54 John Ross: Yeah, that's their idea. And that's the basis for the final regulation. 13:00 Lisa Shoalmire: Yes. But again, there's some details about this. So this is not that seniors can't own firearms but there are some ticky little details. 13:11 John Ross: That is certainly true. And so what we're gonna do is, we're gonna take our bottom of the hour break here for the news and when we come back, we're gonna go into the details so you'll know. 13:26 Guest: Now back to Aging Insight with John and Lisa. 13:30 Lisa Shoalmire: Well, welcome back everyone to Aging Insight. This is Lisa Shoalmire here with John Ross. We are elder law attorneys here on the radio on Saturdays for you and we're trying to keep you up to date and we're trying to make sure that you don't get sucked in by fake news when it comes to dealing with firearm ownership and if you happen to be receiving social security benefits. 14:00 John Ross: But on the other hand, that you also know what's out there because it's still a little strange out there. 14:10 Lisa Shoalmire: Yeah, yes it is. Of course, John, the Social Security Administration proposed these rules about firearm ownership and some changes back in May, I believe. And they received over 90,000 comments but most of the comments were just duplicates. I guess you call them spam or junk emails or whatever you'd wanna call it. But on December 19th, they did issue some final rules about receiving social security and your ability to own a firearm. And John, essentially what they're talking about is that, if anyone meets the criteria that they are setting out, which we're about to discuss, then those names of those Social Security recipients will be sent to the list. [laughter] 15:04 John Ross: Yeah, it's the FBI's National Instant Criminal Background Check System or NICS. 15:12 Lisa Shoalmire: Yeah, so these names will be sent to the NICS list so that should this person go to Academy, Walmart of wherever and look to purchase a firearm, their instant background check will come back as rejected, that they cannot own a firearm. So let's get into the criteria, John. 15:32 John Ross: Yeah, so this is where the deal is. Does this apply to certain people with Social Security? Yes, but essentially there's a list of five separate requirements that you as a Social Security recipient would have to meet for you to fall into the category under this rule. 16:00 Lisa Shoalmire: Well, I was gonna jump in there and say they're putting all this under the umbrella of mentally defective. Yes. 16:08 John Ross: And so the first thing is that you're filing a claim based on disability. 16:14 Lisa Shoalmire: That's a big... So for a lot of our listeners out there, that rule in itself oughta give you some comfort that a lot of folks, you can file for social security either as part of social security retirement when you reach retirement age that you can file for social security based on your work record. And then you can also file for social security based on a disability. Whether disability due to an injury or illness, and so that disability is based on your work record but you're not yet retirement age or a disability, perhaps you've had a certain disability since birth or... 17:01 John Ross: Right. And so if you've paid into the system, you get Social Security disability benefits. If you have not paid into the system, but are disabled and also do not have any other income or assets then you would qualify for Supplemental Security Income, SSI, which also comes through the social security. And applying for either SSDI or SSI, both of those would be, number one, filing a... 17:30 Lisa Shoalmire: Claim based. 17:31 John Ross: Claim for based on disability, but what it is not is turning 65 and retiring. 17:36 Lisa Shoalmire: Or 66. 17:37 John Ross: Or 66. 17:38 Lisa Shoalmire: Or 62. 17:39 John Ross: Or 62. Or 70. Or whenever it is that you... 17:41 Lisa Shoalmire: Whenever that you file. But if you've just reached an age and you know you qualify for social security benefits based on your age and your work record and so your 62 or above and you go up to the Social Security Administration and you file for social security, you will not be deprived of your right to own a firearm based on your applying for social security retirement benefits. 18:08 John Ross: That's right. So that's step one. 18:09 Lisa Shoalmire: Okay. 18:10 John Ross: So that cuts out basically the vast majority of Social Security recipients, at least the ones that are... It cuts out all the ones that are receiving it due to retirement. 18:18 Lisa Shoalmire: Yes, but the headlines, you know, John, don't really give you that detail. 18:22 John Ross: No, that's right. So the number two is that the disability determination is based on one of the mental disorders that are listed in all of the various social security rules. I have to admit. I did not do the research to come up with a list of all of the various potential mental disorders that Social Security maintains a list of. 18:50 Lisa Shoalmire: Well, I looked at the citation for that list, John, and it was subpart B of section 404 appendix 2.1. I thought, "Oh, that's gonna be... " 19:00 John Ross: Not gonna do it. 19:02 Lisa Shoalmire: Yeah, so you have to be making a claim to Social Security for disability and that disability has to be found that you're disabled due to a mental impairment that is listed as a mental disorder in the appendix in the Social Security handbook. 19:21 John Ross: Right. Number three goes along with that same thing which is the... And again, this just sounds like typical government stuff. When the Social Security inputs your disability, they're gonna use a code. If that code relates to a certain primary diagnosis for mental impairment, then now you've met number three. 19:48 Lisa Shoalmire: So this is an issue, John, I think that we've seen this. What about a veteran who has lost a limb and is disabled, but has PTSD as well? Perhaps their primary diagnosis code is loss of limb. 20:13 John Ross: Sure. 20:14 Lisa Shoalmire: So they are saying here that the primary diagnosis has to be a mental issue. 20:20 John Ross: Yeah, there may be secondary diagnoses, but the primary diagnosis has to be the mental issue. 20:26 Lisa Shoalmire: Yeah. And so the fourth rule, remember there's five requirements, and the fourth rule here is that a person has to have attained the age of 18, but not yet attained full retirement age. So again, John, this excludes all of our Social Security applicants who are applying for retirement benefits. Mostly. 20:52 John Ross: Mostly. And the interesting thing is that you can actually apply for Social Security retirement benefits before full retirement age. But you're still not making a claim based on disability, so you don't have to worry that if you're feeling just a little crazy and thinking about taking your Social Security early, that in and of itself is not gonna get you on the list. 21:17 Lisa Shoalmire: Right, but if you're feeling a little crazy because you're crazy, well maybe that is different. 21:23 John Ross: That's a whole different deal. 21:24 Lisa Shoalmire: But in... 21:25 John Ross: Go ahead. 21:26 Lisa Shoalmire: And so then the final rule here is that your Social Security benefit... Your Social Security Disability is being paid to a representative payee. 21:37 John Ross: Yeah. This is one thing that we run into all the time in the sense that Social Security does not recognize a power of attorney or an agent really of any sort. They take the position that a person who's receiving disability benefits or retirement benefits of any form from Social Security is competent and they're competent enough to manage their own benefits and therefore Social Security won't deal with anybody else. 22:11 Lisa Shoalmire: Right. 22:12 John Ross: And so imagine just to... Take, for example, let's say that you've had a stroke that has caused paralysis and the loss of speech. Now, you may still be perfectly competent. 22:24 Lisa Shoalmire: Right, mentally you're fine. 22:26 John Ross: But how hard is it to walk into a Social Security office and talk to a person? How hard is it to talk to somebody on the phone if you cannot speak? There are lots of people that are not mentally... They're perfectly competent and yet really could use somebody else's help. This is in large part why, in our practice, we do powers of attorney and so that you've got somebody who can handle business for you if you're incapacitated, but your incapacity doesn't have to necessarily be a mental incapacity. It could just be a physical incapacity where it's more convenient for somebody to help you out. But Social Security doesn't care. 23:12 Lisa Shoalmire: Right. And so that's our fifth and final rule. To recap real quick, and I think to really calm the... To get rid of the myth that is out there about this, Social Security is saying that they will report names to the list for not being able to own firearms, if the person is making a claim based on disability, they have been determined to be disabled based on mental impairments listed by Social Security, and that is their primary diagnosis. Further, the person applying for disability is over age 18, but below full retirement age, and is in need and has an appointed representative payee. And so Social Security says that you have to meet... The individual has to meet all five of these criteria, and if you do meet all five of these criteria then your name is reported to the FBI's list for not being able to own firearms. 24:21 John Ross: That's right. I don't know how many people on their lists in Social Security would actually meet all five of those definitions. What I do know though is that your general retiree is not going to be on that list. 24:38 Lisa Shoalmire: Right. And of course John, a couple things, there has been some discussion, would there be people that meet all five of those, but who can own and responsibly own a firearm? There's been a discussion of that. I'm sure some enterprising attorney will find that person. 24:57 John Ross: The problem you run into is of course the determination as to whether or not you meet all five of these criteria is made by Social Security and you are notified by Social Security... And I'm not sure that Social Security even notifies you at all, but essentially, they make the determination, they report you to NICS. 25:25 Lisa Shoalmire: And your ability to own a firearm is gone. 25:28 John Ross: And then you're notified that this has happened. 25:30 Lisa Shoalmire: Right. So the right that you may be walking around with right now is removed without any hearing notice, and then after the fact, the individual's provided notice, and of course Social Security has helpfully set up an appeal process for a person who receives a notification that they have been reported to the NICS. 26:00 John Ross: NICS. Yeah. But the deal is done. 26:04 Lisa Shoalmire: But yes. And then there's of course the timing to how long does it take for an appeal? What's the cost? So there's some issues there where civil rights folks are saying, "Hey, wait a minute. It may not be a bad idea to evaluate if someone has a primary diagnosis of mental impairment etcetera that they should not own firearms, but perhaps we should put the process first, and then remove the right, second. [chuckle] 26:36 John Ross: Yeah, might be a good idea. Well, we're gonna take one more break, and then we're gonna come back and finish up our discussion on this. Stick around, and of course if you have any questions, you'll have a moment or two to call when we come back from the break. So stick around, we'll be right back. 26:40 John Ross: Welcome back to Aging Insight, everybody. This is John Ross, and it looks like we've got a caller on the line, if they're still there. So let me see if I can get this caller on. Caller, you're on Aging Insight. 26:51 Caller-1: Hello? 26:52 John Ross: Hello. Yes. 26:53 Caller-1: Yeah. This is Caller-1 again, nickname Stonewall. 27:00 John Ross: Oh, yeah. 27:00 Caller-1: Okay, well up here, I went down to Walmart to get some medicine because... I got some recall back on this phone or something. I don't know what it is. 27:14 Lisa Shoalmire: Yeah, you might wanna step... Turn the radio down or step away from the radio. 27:18 Caller-1: Okay. It's off, it's off. 27:21 John Ross: That should clear it up. 27:22 Caller-1: Anyway, I went down there to Walmart to get some medication for the flu-like symptoms I had and it was $88 and something. It was the cough syrup and whatever it is. But that's one thing, but what I was wanting to ask about is I'm 71 and if I live to be 72, I'm trying to get their hearing aid and some teeth and I wanna know about how to go about doing it. 27:50 John Ross: Yeah, so, there's not... Unfortunately, those... There are some benefits out there. But what you would probably... You can look at what Medicare will cover and what it won't cover, but there's a lot of that stuff that is not covered or not covered enough. 28:10 Lisa Shoalmire: Right. Particularly, when it comes to I think on the hearing aids, John, those... That might be a one-shot deal. [chuckle] And then on the dentures, I think there has to be a difference between a medical need and cosmetic. 28:27 Caller-1: Well, I can do without the dentures. I just need a hearing aid because I can't hardly hear nothing. When I went to the doctor this morning to see about my problem, the guy that checks in, he had to yell at me two or three times and I don't like that. And I've had a bunch of my friends that get Social Security SSI. They got a hearing aid, and they lost it, and they got teeth, and they lost them. [chuckle] 28:50 Lisa Shoalmire: Yeah, yeah and that's the deal. There are different programs, and those different programs will pay for different things. 28:56 John Ross: Yeah, one thing you might do is, one of our sponsors is a guy named Jay Barnett who will analyze your Medicare insurance and figure out what it pays for and what it doesn't. He might be able to help guide you as to where you could get that. The other thing is depending on your financial situation, if you were able to qualify for Medicaid benefits, there are some dental programs and hearing programs. You also might contact the... There's a state agency for the deaf. 29:31 Caller-1: A state agency for what? 29:33 John Ross: For the deaf. 29:35 Caller-1: Okay. 29:36 John Ross: And you might also reach out to them and see if they've got any suggestions. 29:42 Lisa Shoalmire: If you give our office a call next week after the New Year's holiday, I actually have a handbook that's got phone numbers and various agencies and things for... We'll be glad to give you a copy of that. So, just give us a call at the office at the Ross and Shoalmire Law Office and we'll make sure and get that out to you in the mail. 30:06 Caller-1: Is it 903-793-1071? Is that your office number? 30:10 John Ross: No, that's the number here at the radio station. Our office number is 903-22... 30:18 Caller-1: 903... 30:19 John Ross: Yeah, 223... 30:21 Caller-1: 223... 30:23 John Ross: 5653. 30:25 Caller-1: 5653? 30:26 John Ross: That's it. 30:27 Lisa Shoalmire: Yes, and I have put together, because I've spoken with a lot of people like you, Stonewall, that need a little bit of help, need some resources to get some things done. And so, I've put that altogether in a handbook. So, if you call or if anybody else who's listening calls, we will mail one out to you. And Stonewall, I will put a tab on the organizations I think might be best be able to help you. 30:52 Caller-1: Yeah, I just need me a hearing aid real bad 'cause I can't hear due to deaf and that Belmont guy that sells the hearing aids, and he says, "If you can't afford one, we will give you one." When I went down there, and that's a joke. There wasn't, they didn't give me nothing. And then this one lady I went through and checked on it, it's like $6,300 and she called me about 14 times 'cause I used to sell Electrolux for a living. I sold about 130 when I was young. And well this... 31:28 Lisa Shoalmire: She kept calling you, huh? 31:30 Caller-1: Yeah, she called me about 14 times 'cause I know what the commission is on that. And me and my $2,300 and I just couldn't afford it and they let you pay payments on it, but that's just too much money for a hearing aid, you know what I'm saying? 31:43 John Ross: Sure. Nope, they're very expensive. Well yeah, give us a shout at the office next week and we'll get you that handbook and see if we can't point you in the right direction. 31:53 Caller-1: Okay, thank you sir. 31:54 John Ross: Alrighty. 31:54 Lisa Shoalmire: Thanks, Stonewall. 31:55 John Ross: You have a good New Year's. 31:58 Lisa Shoalmire: Well, Stonewall, I appreciate... Again, that's the reality of things and I appreciate his call, and I sure hope he gets to feeling better after all that... 32:07 John Ross: That's right. Well, and we've got, looks like maybe we've got one more here on the line. Let me see if we can get them on. This is John Ross, you're on Aging Insight. 32:16 Caller-2: Hey John, this is Rey. I was just wondering if a Social Security recipient did meet those five requirements that's set down the Social Security Administration has been mentally incompetent, and they had spent their life collecting a bunch of firearms and registered monthly as they should, could, and would the FBI come and confiscate those firearms? 32:41 John Ross: That's a good question. I think the answer is yes, they could. 32:46 Lisa Shoalmire: I think the answer is yes they could as well, which is that's why we have used some gun trusts and things for folks who may find themselves to be suddenly a prohibited person in owning those firearms. And it's through the ATF probably that would be able to... 33:03 John Ross: The FBI would notify the ATF and... 33:05 Lisa Shoalmire: ATF, yeah. I haven't seen it happen yet, but we live in different strange times. 33:13 John Ross: Yeah. And so, it's possible. Again, I think depending on the circumstances probably unlikely. More likely would be that you're on that list, you're still in possession of 'em and then something else happens, not that they come to get them, but let's say that there's a fire at the house and the fire department comes. During the process of the fire, they notice that there's firearms in the house... 33:41 Lisa Shoalmire: And there's insurance claims. 33:43 John Ross: And there's insurance claims and the cops are involved and somehow that gets run against the background check system and they see that you're not supposed to have them and there they were in the house. That seems to me like a more likely possibility, essentially an accidental discovery. 34:03 Caller-2: Well, thank you very much for your opinion. 34:05 John Ross: Yeah, no problem. 34:07 Caller-2: Happy New Year. 34:07 John Ross: You too. Alright, well, and we're getting close here to the end. But I think one point... And I've made this on the show before, but this is a new rule to Social Security. It's not a new rule to the VA. 34:24 Lisa Shoalmire: That's right. We've been dealing with this same type of rule with the VA for 10 years, I would say. 34:30 John Ross: Yeah, the VA also does not recognize powers of attorney and many times, we're sending in claims for VA benefits, particularly for a home care, a little extra money for some home care or for assisted living and things like that. In order to obtain the benefit, we need to show that the veteran or the widow of the veteran, whoever we're applying for, needs somebody else's help with their daily living. 35:00 Lisa Shoalmire: Right. And that could be meal preparation, hygiene assistance, transfer assistance, getting around. It could also mean medication management or financial assistance. 35:12 John Ross: But the problem is we've gotta make them look so sick to get the benefit, that then the VA comes back and says, "Oh no, we agree you're so sick you need the money, but you're also so sick... " 35:25 Lisa Shoalmire: You can't have a gun. 35:25 John Ross: "That you can't have a gun." Let's see, we've probably got a... 35:29 Lisa Shoalmire: Just a quick minute. 35:30 John Ross: A quick call here, alright caller, you're on Aging Insight. We only have a second so go ahead. 35:36 Caller-3: Yeah. I just wondered, could that be cross referenced if someone using the VA... Could that be cross referenced to the Social Security Administration? 35:46 John Ross: That's actually a good question. And one that's been dancing around in the back of my mind as well because the social security and the VA already do a tax return match. 35:57 Lisa Shoalmire: Yes. That they're already cross referencing income information. No doubt, I bet if Social Security deems a person mentally unfit to own a firearm, that that would be reported the VA, if there's a VA benefit. 36:11 John Ross: And the VA could then turn around and start doing it the other direction, who knows? So yeah, good question. We're reaching the end of the show here, and so I wanna thank everybody for listening. I hope everybody has a great New Year's Eve. Stay safe out there. If you're gonna be shooting fireworks off, don't blow yourself up. 36:29 Lisa Shoalmire: Don't shoot a gun into the air. [chuckle] 36:31 John Ross: And don't shoot guns into the air. Just have a safe... 36:36 Lisa Shoalmire: But we're so thankful for our listeners on Aging Insight. Can't wait for 2017. 36:42 John Ross: That's exactly right. So everybody have a good New Year and we will see you next weekend.